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  SonOfTheMask4 months, 2 weeks ago

  FTA: "The Left is now redefining and, therefore, misusing the term swiftboating, and this misuse has become one of the many notable aspects of the 2008 presidential campaign. Democratic candidates and their partisans in the blogosphere use this word to mean smearing their candidates for public office with lies and innuendo."

  That is a very accurate statment judging by numerous comments I see here on Propeller.

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    pc254 months, 2 weeks ago

    it has been a constant on Propeller.....any article backed by facts that is critical of either of the Democratic candidates and the cries of swiftboating soon appear

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      injest4 months, 2 weeks ago

      PC25

      "it has been a constant on Propeller.....any article backed by facts that is critical of either of the Democratic candidates and the cries of swiftboating soon appear"

      Swiftboating, playing John Kerry's own words and images is somehow a lie.

      Is it ignorance, envy or both that drives these Dems to cling to the façade that somehow Kerry's words are distorted.

      Swift boating is the bitter pill of truth.

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        ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

        INJEST:

        "Swift boating is the bitter pill of truth."

        Here are some more "bitter pills of truth"--this time about John McCain from the very Vietnam veterans you and SON are citing in this thread.

        http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan08/mccain_military_r...

        "McCain's grades were 'marginal.' He drew so many demerits for breaking curfew and other discipline issues that he graduated fifth from the bottom of the class of 1958."

        http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com...

        "Navy pilot John Sidney McCain III should have never been allowed to graduate from the U.S. Navy flight school. He was a below average student and a lousy pilot. During his relative short stunt on flight status, McCain III lost five U.S. Navy aircraft, four in accidents. Robert Timberg wrote that McCain's 'performance was below par, at best good enough to get by.'"

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          injest4 months, 2 weeks ago

          "Here are some more "bitter pills of truth"--this time about John McCain from the very Vietnam veterans you and SON are citing in this thread."

          And how exactly could anything you or anyone else say that changes John Kerry's 1971 testimony?

          Try and stay on topic.

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            thestupidisallaroundus4 months, 2 weeks ago

            Big problem on this is that Kerry was telling what other vets had told him. Btw all of those claims was verified by indepedant sources. Obviously a lot of people have never heard about the Tiger Force unit of the Army's 101st Airborne Division who killed and mutiliated hundreds of unarmed and innocent South Vietnamese civilians over a seven month period in 1967. An army investigation substainted that 20 war crimes had been commited by 18 soldiers of the unit. This four year investigation reached the Pentagaon and the white house before the investigation was closed in 1975.

            Funny how the US army, Marines, Navy all have been found to have conducted investigations into war crimes commited by US Military Personal during Vietnam and were closed when it was found that atrocities and war crimes had indeed been commited by US military forces. These investigations were conducted in secret and closed so no court martial could take place. Contray to the Geneva Conventions and US miltiary code.

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          injest4 months, 2 weeks ago

          BTW anyone who is Car-qual is a dam good pilot.

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        ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

        http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcaindiv.htm

        "While he was imprisoned, Carol was in an auto wreck (1969), thrown through her car's windshield and left seriously injured. Despite her injures, she refused to allow her POW husband to be notified about her condition, fearing that such news would not be good for him while he was being held prisoner.

        When McCain returned to the United States in 1973 after more than five years as a prisoner of war, he found his wife was a different person. The accident "left her 4 inches shorter and on crutches, and she had gained a good deal of weight."

        In his book, The Nightingale's Song, Robert Timberg chronicled McCain's post-Vietnam military assignments and some of his "adulterous" behavior leading to his divorce from Carol and marriage to Cindy Hensley."

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        ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

        http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com...

        "McCain, the "below par" pilot, eventually lost 5 military aircraft, the first during a training flight in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while trying to land.

        He assumed command of the RAG, which trained pilots and crews for carrier deployments. The assignment was controversial, some calling it favoritism, a sop to the famous son of a famous father and grandfather, since he had not first commanded a squadron, the usual career path.

        While Executive Officer and later as Squadron Commander McCain used his authority to arrange frequent flights that allowed him to carouse with subordinates and 'engage in extra-marital affairs.' This was a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice rules against adultery and fraternization with subordinates."

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          tiredofwhiners4 months, 2 weeks ago

          All your anti-mcCain stuff seems to have nothing to do with this article. The point is that when you expose a lie of a candidate you are swift boating. McCain hasn't made up a story about his high grades, valor, purity etc. Some of what you say I've heard McCain himslef admit (5th from bottom of class). Do you realize that just to be admitted to the Naval Academy, you have to be near or at the top of your high school class and then some? His carousing and rejecting his first wife isn't something you'd expect him to brag about. Kerry certainly didn't brag about his marrying for money. Try another thread to criticize McCain.

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            ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

            TIRED:

            "Do you realize that just to be admitted to the Naval Academy, you have to be near or at the top of your high school class and then some?"

            Not in McCain's case, which you would have known IF you had read the full articles written by Vietnam veterans that I posted. McCain was accepted because his father and grandfather were admirals. McCain was a "legacy child" accepted for whom he knew instead of for what he knew. In the same way, GW Bush was accepted into Yale's undergraduate and Harvard MBA program as a "legacy child," certainly not based on merit alone.

            TIRED:

            "when you expose a lie of a candidate you are swift boating."

            Have you exposed Kerry as a liar? Where's your evidence? Kerry's story is supported by an OFFICIAL investigation by the armed forces and the first-hand testimony of those on his boat. The Swift Boaters only claim to have been in nearby boats but have no EVIDENCE to prove how close their boats were to Kerry's.

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      jordan114 months, 2 weeks ago

      any article backed by facts>>>>

      Facts? What would those 'articles' be? Could you do me a favor & point me to them? I seem to have missed that, but then I don't spend a whole lot of time searching. Anyway, I'd like to know what articles you mean, and read where people called them 'swiftboating.' You know, judge the accuracy of your comment with the 'facts.' Thanks so much.

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        ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

        The facts about Kerry's service are these:

        1) An official investigation awarded Kerry a Purple Heart.

        2) Almost all of the survivors on John Kerry's boat corroborated Kerry's story.

        3) John McCain defended Kerry's service.

        The facts about Bush and Cheney:

        1) Cheney sought multiple deferments.

        2) Bush was absentee, according to Gerald Lechliter, a "registered Independent" and "retired Army colonel with active Marine enlisted service."

        http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/opinion/lec...

        "The pay records prove Bush received unauthorized fraudulent payments for inactive duty training. Bush failed to meet the statutory and regulatory fiscal year satisfactory participation requirement. Bush's superiors in the National Guard failed to take required regulatory actions when Bushed missed required training and failed to take his flight physical. Bush did not meet the requirements for satisfactory participation from 1972 to 1973."

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      Blackacereturn4 months, 2 weeks ago

      I THINK YOU ARE WORRIED THAT PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF SWIFTBOATING AND WILL NOT SO EASILY FALL FOR IT. TO ME THIS IS A SILLY ATTEMPT TO BLAME THE VICTIMS FOR YOUR STUPID ACTIONS. AMERICA IS THE WISER NOW FROM HAVING ENDURES YOUR LIES, YOUR RUN FOR A SMALL TIME HAS COME TO AN END. IF YOU THINK YOU ON THE RIGHT ARE THE ONLY ONES PLAYING ROUGH THIS TIME AROUND THINK AGAIN! WE PLAN TO GIVE YOU AS GOOD AS WE GET. I HAVE SEEN THE STORIES POSTED HERE BY SOME OF YOU ON THE RIGHT CALLING IT LIGIMIT...OHLY A 4 YEAR OLD WOULD BUY THAT CRAP AND REMEMBER THEY ARE NOT VOTING!

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    ETproductions4 months, 2 weeks ago

    The whole premise of this article is that John Kerry lied about his Vietnam service and that the Repug 527 behind the Swiftboating told the truth. Since that is a total reversal of the Naval records and of the testimony of the crew Kerry commanded, the article itself gives swiftboating the exact opposite definition from that most Americans understand it to be.

    A new low for the New RepugniCon slander machine.

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      Endoscopy4 months, 2 weeks ago

      Is it similar to Borking?? Democrats are proud of that one. If it is good for the goose its good for the gander. Democrats started that tradition and yell when it is their turn. Kennedy viciously went after a nominee for judge and later told the man there was nothing personal it was just politics. Attempting to lie and destroy a mans reputation is just politics. Why do you think that it is OK for Democrats but not Republicans. At least the swift boaters were serving in boats near him and told what they saw and didn't lie.

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        ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

        ENDOSCOPY:

        "Is it similar to Borking?"

        It truly is a pity that Robert Bork, the man who carried out Richard Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre in an effort to save Richard Nixon from his IMPEACHABLE actions, wasn't appointed to be a Supreme Court justice. After all, what other Republican could better embody the ideals of justice and truth, like Robert Bork -- the man who carried out Richard Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre.

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    sotiris-k4 months, 2 weeks ago

    Last i checked Kerry didnt lose because of swiftboating. He 'lost' because of the cheating (astronomical probability to not be so)that took place in Ohio and most importantly because a segment of the US population has engaged in mental paralysis for the last 20yrs ignoring world trends, abandoning science and logic, embracing the most hypocritical version of religion man has ever created (betraying the true core of Christ's teachings 100x over) and celebrating short term cannibalism of society for profit as the neoamerican dream.

    Anyone here who has the bloody audacity to claim that a jackass that avoided to serve for his country during war and has since sacrificed sons and husbands and treasure across the US to empower his oil sob friends worldwide stands above he who risked life, to the point to believe that swiftboating campaign of 2004 actually performed a service deserves the full misery history will remember GWB with and those traitors that enabled him. 2008 will turn it all!

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      Endoscopy4 months, 2 weeks ago

      LOL

      In 2000 Democrats lost because of wrong counting of the ballots and the Supreme court. In 2004 is was what happened in Ohio. They never lose it is always stolen from them. I think they are crying wolf.

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        sotiris-k4 months, 2 weeks ago

        http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334...

        very interested who is trying to delete the following wikipedia article as well;

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States...

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          ArgoNunya4 months, 2 weeks ago

          Wikipedia is not reputable and/or acceptable as a source for anything. Try a real encyclopedia or other factual, non-editable by any schmuck out there, source of information.

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            sotiris-k4 months, 2 weeks ago

            Yes yes i like this argument so much my friend. Wikipedia is supposed to be garbage because everything that is made from the good will of people and without a profit is garbage according to some. The fact remains i have used wikipedia to read about topics even in my own field where i have thousands of books at home , my university library and ebooks. I have yet to see anything i read in my field that looked wrong . It is easy to spot where the problem is with an article if you are already educated and intelligent. Its like watching the news on TV from a very good channel. You dont exactly give the news on TV 100% validitity now do you or that of a newspaper. You examine what you read then adjust it with what you already know and you try to verify what seems risky with other sources. If you do that you will realize that the product that wikipedia has created although not perfect , at the hands of an intelligent being is valuable and contributes to a broad education.

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              sotiris-k4 months, 2 weeks ago

              I always look for more sources to read. I never trust for example an article that looks to have no references or that has references of limited variety. This doesnt mean that in those cases what i read is a lie but it means i have to work further to examine that information. I place what i read in wikipedia while using my own mind at the same time at such a high degree of confidence that what i watch on TV or or any politician and their operators stands 10 times below that by comparison . Always use your critical mind with any information provided to you that you cannot mathematically or experimentally verify the steps one by one. That way its easy to see how wrong something looks. Trust me i will never post any wikipedia link here that i am not personally safe with. Additionally there is a way to see what was edited in an article ,by whom and when. Often enough the very article states that what it says needs further verification or is disputed. I respect wikipedia for it.

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              ArgoNunya4 months, 2 weeks ago

              Just because you like it doesn't make it any more reputable or acceptable by Universities as a reputable source.

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      sotiris-k4 months, 2 weeks ago

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_militar...

      Try reading more about it.

      By the way dont forget that segment;

      Several members of SBVT served in the same unit as Kerry, but only one, Stephen Gardner, served on the same boat. A number of Kerry's later SBVT critics claimed to have been present on accompanying Swift Boats, at some of the salient events of Kerry's enemy engagements in Vietnam.

      Other SBVT members included two of Kerry's former commanding officers, Grant Hibbard and George Elliott. Hibbard and Elliott have alleged, respectively, that Kerry's first Purple Heart and Silver Star were undeserved. In addition, members of SBVT have questioned the merit of Kerry's other medals and his truthfulness in testimony about the war.

      Defenders of John Kerry's service record, including virtually all of his former crewmates, have stated that SBVT's accusations are false.

      --

      The last sentence is telling indeed.

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        sotiris-k4 months, 2 weeks ago

        You of course know what is taking the superpower down in flames dont you. The very fact that in 2008 with serious issues pending we have the amazing ever lasting devotion to finding as many topics as possible that can polarize and irritate each other. Yes lets relive 1968 because it is so very much relevant to 2008. Lets split rice over how big injury one had, how close to death he didnt come when the other guy is sitting safely half a world around protected due to his family's influence. Lets celebrate that shouldnt we? Lets smear , lets find lies , lets make people hate each other , lets betray all the nobility and sense of patriotism that ancestors once had . Lets belittle everything, lets live the future in the past immersed in lies, lets close our eyes to our problems and try to find who's pastor said what, how many ways a sentence can be rotated, inverted examined for proper spelling , grammar and voice tone because we dont have what it takes to talk real topics instead!!!

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          tiredofwhiners4 months, 2 weeks ago

          "we have the amazing ever lasting devotion to finding as many topics as possible that can polarize and irritate each other."

          You have succeeded in doing just that.

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            sotiris-k4 months, 2 weeks ago

            How do irritate and polarize here? Cant you feel my pain that i see something valuable and important for mankind, a system that stood for science, technology, innovation , freedom , enthusiasm , optimism a great number of good qualities is being wasted in the hands of inept people that cannot ever rise above partisan positions? It happens wordwide not only in the US but it is pronounced here only because it inflicts the maximum loss given the wasted opportunities. We need leaders that will unite us behind objectives that uplift our lives, make us more responsible, proud and heroic at the same time. We need a moon project. Call it today an energy project , an environment project , an education-science project. We need to invest in our ultimate utility, human beings. How is the average citizen improved by endless political debates about abortion, gay marriage, taxes for the superrich, stem cells , creationism in biology texts or permanent fears about mythological terrorism giants?

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          Blackacereturn4 months, 2 weeks ago

          WELL SAID SOTIRIS - I feel the 2 negs you got is more out of reflex action and shame than disagreement! What I worry about and wonder if the citizens can do anything about it is the highest court in the land. What if we are before them again in this election? It's easy to do just contest any close states and it could go all the way to them. The right under bush has set the courts up to in essence steal every election for a very long time!

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            sotiris-k4 months, 2 weeks ago

            I trust that a leader with vision and intellect can position himself(or herself - well not this time lol soon i hope) in such a way that courts cannot bypass the truth. I hold both Gore and Kerry partially responsible for not forcing with their own conduct the problems in such a way as to make the courts take a more balanced position . If Gore had insisted relentlessly for a recount in the entire state of Florida and urged the courts to enforce exactly that without spending too much time in limited cases where the delays were easier to introduce he would have had a proper result. It is very easy to make the courts look inept in the eyes of the broad population if you have the intellect to point to the right direction. Nobody can resist to a leader that rises above his personal gain and demands something extremelly proper to be done. Problems in Florida werent only for democrats but also for republicans. All counties needed adjustments. Thats where he lost valuable time early.

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    jordan114 months, 2 weeks ago

    I find it rather humorous that a political affiliation that has so ardently attempted to redefine our language would be submitting this. You know what I mean; Liberal, Patriotism, Rule of Law, Family Values.....& so on. Me thinks ya'll are projecting there, sport.

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  SonOfTheMask4 months, 2 weeks ago

  FTA: "These corrective accounts of the Swift Vets are compelling and are the very definition of swiftboating. The term deserves the positive connotation of "whistle-blowing.""

  Spot on! Huzzah!

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    ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

    At least Kerry saw combat in Vietnam, unlike Dick Cheney and GW Bush. I'll take Kerry's military record over GW Bush's and Dick Cheney's ANY day of the week.

    Here is an investigation by Gerald Lechliter, a "registered Independent" and "retired Army colonel with active Marine enlisted service."

    http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/opinion/lec...

    "The pay records released by the White House this past winter prove Bush received unauthorized fraudulent payments for inactive duty training. Bush failed to meet the statutory and regulatory fiscal year satisfactory participation requirement. Bush's superios in the National Guard failed to take required regulaotry actions when Bushed missed required training and failed to take his flight physical. Bush did not meet the requirements for satisfactory participation from 1972 to 1973."

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      ArgoNunya4 months, 2 weeks ago

      Re: ybdogsct "At least Kerry saw combat in Vietnam, unlike Dick Cheney and GW Bush. I'll take Kerry's military record over GW Bush's and Dick Cheney's ANY day of the week."

      It is amazing that you are still discussing irrelevant talking points from an election that took place 4 years ago.

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        ADAGUY4 months, 2 weeks ago

        Hey dip$hit, this entire article is about an election that took place 4 years ago!

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          crespi4 months, 2 weeks ago

          lol

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          ArgoNunya4 months, 2 weeks ago

          First of all, f*ckface, I would love for you to try to call me dip$hit to my face. Second, the article is about today, certainly not about President George W. Bush or Vice President Dick Cheney, or bogus documents about either:

          "The Left is now redefining and, therefore, misusing the term swiftboating, and this misuse has become one of the many notable aspects of the 2008 presidential campaign."

          Schmuck. (And I would certainly call you that to your face, dip$hit.)

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            ADAGUY4 months ago

            whatsamatter? did yer fellins' get hurt?

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    ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

    http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/02...

    "In 1972, George W. Bush walked away from the Texas Air National Guard. He skipped required weekend drill sessions, for more than a year, and did not take a mandatory annual physical exam, which resulted in his being grounded. According to his own discharge papers, there is no record that he did any training after May 1972. Indeed, there is no record that Bush performed any Guard service in Alabama at all. In 2000, a group of veterans offered a $3,500 reward for anyone who could confirm Bush's Alabama Guard service. Of the estimated 600 to 700 Guardsmen who were in Bush's unit, not a single person came forward.

    In 1973 Bush returned to his Houston Guard unit, but in May of that year his commanders could not complete his annual officer effectiveness rating report because, they wrote, 'Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report.'

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      tiredofwhiners4 months, 2 weeks ago

      Isn't it McCain, Clinton and Obama we need to be talking about? Bush isn't running for Pres. He's history.

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        ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

        TIREDOFWHINERS:

        "Isn't it McCain, Clinton and Obama we need to be talking about? Bush isn't running for Pres."

        Kerry isn't running for president either. Yes, I agree. Let's talk about McCain and what Vietnam veterans said about his military service. Let's talk about how Vietnam war veterans:

        1) accuse McCain to be the beneficiary of nepotism for his famous father and grandfather by being accepted into the Navy, being awarded an officer position without completing officer training training, and having been given a passing grade in flight school even after crashing 5 airplanes.

        2) accuse McCain of violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice rules against adultery and fraternization with subordinates, when he would use Navy planes to have adulterous affairs with his subordinates.

        Yes, let's talk about mcCain and what Vietnam veterans have to say about him.

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    ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

    http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/02...

    "Based on those records, as well as interviews with Texas Air National guardsmen, the Globe raised serious questions as to whether Bush ever reported for duty at all during 1973. Republicans clearly want to quarantine the issue of Bush's service and have it labeled as outside the bounds of acceptable public discourse."

    The Swift Boat Veterans violated FEC campaign finance laws and as part of their conciliation agreement, agreed to pay a fine of $299,500, cease all operations, and donate the remainder of their funds to veterans injured in the Iraq war.

    http://eqs.nictusa.com/eqsdocs/000058ED.pdf

    "On December 2006, the FEC accepted the signed conciliation agreement and civial penalty submitted by the Wfit Boat Veterans and POWs for Truth in settlement of violations of 2 U.S.C. 433, 434, 441a(f), and 441b(a), provisions of the FEC Act of 1971, as amended."

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    ybdogsct4 months, 2 weeks ago

    Besides, several Republicans, like John McCain, defended Kerry's record:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/2004080...

    "The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which gets most of its funding from Texas Republican activists, launched a TV spot in three battleground states yesterday repeatedly charging Kerry with lying about his Vietnam service.

    'I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable,' John McCain told the AP. 'None of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me [in 2000].'"

    Even the Bush administration came to Kerry's defense:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=...

    "The Bush campaign never has and will never question John Kerry's service in Vietnam."

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  SonOfTheMask4 months, 2 weeks ago

  FTA: "In 2004 the Swift Vets made them pay a little for that otherwise free pass by setting a small part of the record straight. This is the meaning of swiftboating, and we should demand more of it. All we have to lose are the dishonest autobiographies from our self-serving political class."

  Now that rings true!! Thank you, Mr. Wickham, for a nice commentary and I'll be adding this book to my "must read" list.

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  stephen-johnson4 months, 2 weeks ago

  If there was ever a case of "swiftboating", it was Dan Rather trying to use a forged document to sink a sitting president during an election year.

  John O'Neill founded the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth for one reason - he and over 200 of his fellow sailors didn't want John Kerry to be Commander in Chief. Period.

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    CRYMTYPHON4 months, 2 weeks ago

    You are exactly right.

    Keeping Kerry from being president was what it was about.

    They had hated him for years speaking against the war.

    It was not about the truth. It was about politics. It was political advertising, from haters, to those willing to believe the words of hate.

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      crghss4 months, 2 weeks ago

      Your right when you say it's about hate. About Kerry's hate filled words against his fellow vets. And 20 years later his words came back to haunt him. Pay back is a b!tch

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      stephen-johnson4 months, 2 weeks ago

      "It was about politics."

      Spoken like a true partisan wonk. Politics is everything to you. The honor and duty that soldiers feel is completely alien to you.

      You really don't get it, do you?

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        CRYMTYPHON4 months, 2 weeks ago

        Never been called a policy wonk before. Cool.

        But if politics was everything to me, -

        then I would be slandering John McCain like you did Kerry.

        But I won't.

        McCain's a hero, even if he's a hero I disagree with. So's Bob Dole.

        Tell me about the respect YOU give soldiers when they are not politicaly aligned with you. Carter, Murtha, Gore, Kerry,Cleland; have you defended their honor?

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          stephen-johnson4 months, 2 weeks ago

          "then I would be slandering John McCain like you did Kerry."

          Stating the facts dispassionately - that the Swift Boaters were founded by John O'Neill in opposition to Kerry - is not slander. If you don't like it, that's your issue.

          "Tell me about the respect YOU give soldiers when they are not politicaly aligned with you. Carter, Murtha, Gore, Kerry,Cleland; have you defended their honor?"

          Hey, it's not about you and me - it's about Kerry and the Swift Boaters.

          http://freekerrybook.com/

          How did Kerry's writing the New Soldier uphold the military's honor? The cover of the book itself disgraces the memory of those who died for this country.

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          aniokly4 months, 2 weeks ago

          It is not slander if what you say is true. Hanoi John told John O'Neill he would sue if they releaded the book "Unfit for Command" They published it, and O'Neill is still waiting to get Hanoi John into court, and under oath. He won't sue, because he know what they said is true.

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      libsRfunny4 months, 2 weeks ago

      Whoops, meant to give Crym a negative.

      They couldn't have "swift-boated" him if they weren't speaking the truth.

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        CRYMTYPHON4 months, 2 weeks ago

        Right. And they wouldn't let it be on the internet, if it wasn't true.

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  hamy4 months, 2 weeks ago

  No. Those veterans were used by a political machine to smear a candidate without facts. It is you who is rewriting history.

  And Dan Rather didn't smear the president. He didn't need to. The president has done a pretty good job defining himself as the worst president in history. Dan Rather merely reported the information he had. Same as Bush did with the unsubstantiated evidence that got us into this invasion. So, if Rather is guilty, so is Bush. They committed the same crime.

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    stephen-johnson4 months, 2 weeks ago

    "No. Those veterans were used by a political machine to smear a candidate without facts."

    Are we to believe that over 200 veterans allowed themselves to be duped by a "political machine?" That they had no legitimate grievance against Kerry - a man who likened US troops in Viet Nam to the "hordes of Genghis Khan?" Who wrote this book -

    http://freekerrybook.com/

    that had on its cover a tasteless parody of soldiers raising the flag on Iwo Jima?

    "And Dan Rather didn't smear the president. He didn't need to."

    Then why was he demoted, then terminated?

    You're doing a good job of rewriting history yourself.

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      Grrr4 months, 2 weeks ago

      No, Hamy is right. The swiftboaters were pure political agenda, and Dan Rather was a scapegoat for management. It's all pretty well documented, even in the mainstream. So get over your revisionist selves.

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        MajJohn4 months, 2 weeks ago

        John Kerry was the revisionist then and in 2004.

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          RedRiverJ4 months, 2 weeks ago

          Major you are too kind, Kerry has a real problem telling the truth.

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            tchef4 months, 2 weeks ago

            Shall we look at George Bushes history on telling the truth?

            1. Iraq has WMD

            2. Iraq is a safe haven for Al Queada

            3. I will do what ever it takes to get Osama Bin Ladin.

            4. The economy is fine.

            5. We will be seen as liberators

            6. Mission Accomplished!

            7. If I find that anyone in my cabinet was involved with the outing of Valerie Plame I will prosecute them.

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          hamy4 months, 2 weeks ago

          He's not running anymore so it really doesn't matter. What I would love for you to admit is that if you are going to go after one man's character for telling lies, then you can't support another man who tells lies.

          That is called being a hypocrite.

          So condemn Kerry all you want. Just make sure you are condemning the Bush administration as well for their lies.

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            hamy4 months, 2 weeks ago

            I guess the truth hurts, huh Stephen?

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        pc254 months, 2 weeks ago

        some info about your hero Sen Kerry

        http://www.9thinfantrydivision.com/html/actuale...

        and this one here

        http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpages/index....

        The last battle of the Vietnam War was fought on November 2nd, 2004, as John Kerry was defeated in his bid to become President of the United States by John O'Neill and the Swift Vets and POWs for Truth.

        What was the battle about? It was a battle to recapture the honor of the Vietnam veterans who served gallantly and heroically in that war.

        And who were the adversaries in this battle? It was the dishonest old media culture -- CBS, NBC, ABC, The New York Times, and the LA Times, who backed John Kerry's version of how Vietnam veterans were the enemy of humanity in the Vietnam War.

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          Grrr4 months, 2 weeks ago

          It is true that a lot of people believe the swiftboat crap, but that doesn't make it true. This other stuff you posted is just hawk crud op ed stuff with no facts at all, and doesn't really have anything to do with reality unless you live in ass backwards land.

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            pc254 months, 2 weeks ago

            funny how all the articles you criticize were written and documented by Vietnam vets.........from the 9th infantry division's site

            "To Provide a virtual site that is dedicated and inspirational to 4th Battalion, 47th Regiment, 9th Infantry Division Viet Nam Veterans for placing memorials, memoralbilia, recollections, and information so that our exploits and soldiers, especially those who gave the ultimate sacrifice, will never be forgotten .....

            Our website, which is in continual progress, was initially focused on Charlie Company, 4th/47th soldiers. However, beginning January, 2001, this website was expanded to include all 4th/47th Viet Nam Veterans. Your information and memorabilia is solicited and appreciated by all who have already contributed and those who regularly review this site.

            The website is intended as an information source with links to various related websites for reference and learning purposes."

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              mntnman4444 months, 2 weeks ago

              So I guess this isn't "swiftboating"

              Viet Nam Veterans Against John McCain...

              http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com...

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                pc254 months, 2 weeks ago

                it seems that the authors issues with McCain do not stem at from his service in Viet Nam but the authors belief that Sen McCain was brainwashed by the Viet Cong to destroy this nation......those charges to me are ludicrous.....I am surprised that you didn't include the link where he supposedly crashed 5 Navy planes.......I thought that was on the same site unless they took it down by now.......

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                  mntnman4444 months, 2 weeks ago

                  Hmmm...a group of Viet Nam vets saying things to discredit McCains service...but you say that's different...OK,now I get it...thanks for straightening me out.

                  http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com...

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                  CRYMTYPHON4 months, 2 weeks ago

                  Truth to you, seems to be what is expedient politically.

                  If you were honest, you would speak out against the slanders against Kerry, as well as the slanders against McCain.

                  Your background reasoning seems to be, that we can not prove the slanders are false; ergo they are not slanders.

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                markoller4 months, 2 weeks ago

                If by swiftboating you mean justified accusations, yes it was swiftboating.

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          Natureboy4 months, 2 weeks ago

          "What was the battle about? It was a battle to recapture the honor of the Vietnam veterans who served gallantly and heroically in that war."

          Hm. I know veterans who heroically applied electricity to the genitals of vietnamese women, who tortured for entertainment as well as information.

          Not every veteran did that, but EVERY SINGLE VIETNAM VET went somewhere he did not belong to kill people who did him no wrong.

          How FSCKNG GALLANT!

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            Endoscopy4 months, 2 weeks ago

            You are one sick guy. Saying what Hanoi Jane and the like say. Why do you have to besmirch the veterans? All military is horrid in your eyes. Go take a long walk on a short pier.

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              hamy4 months, 2 weeks ago

              Why are you guys fighting Vietnam all over again. This one is just as bad. Let's stop it before it gets any worse.

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            tiredofwhiners4 months, 2 weeks ago

            "---EVERY SINGLE VIETNAM VET went somewhere he did not belong to kill people who did him no wrong."

            Natureboy: - So did you know EVERY SINGLE VIETNAM VET? I knew some in real time (the 1960's). You are full of $hlt!! Go hug a FSCKNG tree.

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          injest4 months, 2 weeks ago

          As I was reading that link it stuck me how much the media dismissed the Swiftees then yet today the Swiftees are given credit in the defeat of John Kerry.

          What I couldn't figure out was why the Dems ran Thurston Howell 111 and Skippy.

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        zaph224 months, 2 weeks ago

        I'll grant you that I wasn't there, in Cambodia and Viet Nam, until early to mid-1975, April with the 9th MAB during Operations Eagle Pull and Frequent Wind, as you may know, the very end of the war, the evacuations of Phnom Penh and Saigon. That said, I never believed a word Kerry said about things he and his troops had done during the Viet Nam War. Of course there were some that did some terrible things, but it was rare, and if you were there you know that.

        (cont)

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          zaph224 months, 2 weeks ago

          What the reality is, is that soldiers in Viet Nam were fighting for their lives, and like now, only to be accused of doing terrible things in the press in an attempt to prejudice the American public, and the rest of the world, against them. Kerry LIED in order to pander to voters back then, just as he did when he ran for President. Or was it just that the Marines there served and fought with honor and those (like Kerry) in the Navy, and press corps (Gore) did not?

          (cont)

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          zaph224 months, 2 weeks ago

          I also notice you say you were there, that you served there, but you don't even mention what branch of the military you were in. I don't know about anyone else, but that makes me wonder if... but I will stop there before I get accused of swift-boating you.

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            lovemylibs4 months, 2 weeks ago

            I've no doubt that baddad59 served. Check out his avatar.

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              zaph224 months, 2 weeks ago

              good point, simply not putting that information in a comment wasn't a good reason to doubt his service. I would still be interested in knowing where and when he served, and with what branch. Anyway, I also left out things, I was an E-2 at the time, 19 years old, and as I'm sure you realized, if you know you're history, the unrevised version, I was there for the fall of Saigon.

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                zaph224 months, 2 weeks ago

                cushi, sorry to see you find the fact that I joined the Marines, wasn't even drafted, I'm sorry you seem to find that offensive, but hey, if you live in the US, you're welcome anyway.

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              zaph224 months, 2 weeks ago

              Well for starters how about Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia" story, and the "mistake" on his DD 214 that he never bothered to have corrected, "Why was it that the Kerry campaign site, and supposedly a genuine DD-214, listed a Silver Star with combat "V" (for valor)? Anyone who knows anything about awards and decorations can tell you that just the fact that a Silver Star has been awarded, indicates bravery and valor. Thus, in no circumstances, is a "V" device attached to the Silver Star. It would be redundant to do so. And anyway, it's against regulations. But there it is, the Silver Star with "V" on the Kerry DD-214."

              http://www.militarycorruption.com/kerry3.htm

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        injest4 months, 2 weeks ago

        "You don't buy that kind of loyalty.How many of the people that bush boy served with came out to campaign for him?Thats right zero !!"

        Bush has never ran on Vietnam.

        Kerry did run on Vietnam. The Dems choose to run on Vietnam and they lost on Vietnam. Personally when I saw John Kerry at the convention walk up and give a half a$$ salute stating he's reporting for duty. At that moment my gut said he's done.

        What's even more strange is the Dems have played "Vietnam card" in 4 elections against Bush and have lost all of them. That's just dumb.

        I would like to know how Rove got the Dems to get fixated with Vietnam?

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